Why Am I Like This?!

Why Do I Self Sabotage?!

• Mental Breakdown • Season 2 • Episode 13

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We explore why self-sabotage shows up when life is going well and how the nervous system uses it as protection. We share simple tools to build internal safety, reframe failure, and keep momentum without burning out.

• defining self‑sabotage as protection, not laziness
• discomfort, avoidance, and procrastination patterns
• fear of failure and fear of success dynamics
• imposter thoughts and cognitive distortions
• chaos, hypervigilance, and dopamine’s novelty drop
• curiosity over shame as a core strategy
• the 90‑second rule to ride emotional waves
• sensory grounding, anchors, and visualization
• reframing failure and choosing aligned actions
• trimming “shoulds” and setting value‑based goals

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Laura:

Hello and welcome to Why Am I Like This? A podcast for those who didn't get enough hugs as a child.

Michaela:

I'm Laura Wood, and I'm a promise. And I'm Michaela Beaver, I'm a psychiatric practitioner. Michaela, why are we doing this podcast? I'm so glad you asked. We want to help you understand yourself a bit better. How the things you learn about yourself and the world in past are still affecting you today. We want to figure out why are we like this? Those random things about ourselves you might wonder about. Why am I so jumpy? Why am I so anxious? Why does everything personally? Why are my thoughts so negative? Why do I feel like I have to fix everything all the time?

Laura:

Ooh, yes, today we're unpacking a big one. Self-sabotage. Especially that kind that gets in when things are going right. Why does that happen? Where does it come from? Most importantly, what do we do about it? So let's get started. What do you think?

Michaela:

Where does this why does this happen? Yeah. So I think like starting about like talking about what is self-sabotage, right? So self-sabotage is not like us being lazy or or broken. It's basically just a protective strategy. How we're like our nervous system is wired. These are behaviors that are either on purpose or not necessarily on purpose, and they prevent us from reaching our goals. And then for some reason, all of a sudden, you stop going to the gym one day, or you step on the scale and it doesn't, it's not what you want. So then you start in with these behaviors that might ultimately lead to you stopping going to the gym and stopping your like whole plan.

Laura:

Yeah, like if you get discouraged halfway through, you could just like totally put a halt on everything. Or, you know, I think about defense against um this uncomfortableness of when you're doing something new. It's not comfortable, it's kind of scary, it's kind of uh confusing at times. We have all these different thoughts about it that we don't know if our right, you know, we don't know what is supposed to happen because we're not used to it. It's in it's kind of out of our norm. And so our defensiveness comes in because it's like this is uncomfortable. I shouldn't be doing this, or I should be, you know, I'm doing something wrong.

Michaela:

Or even just, oh, that feels like so much work. I know I'm gonna be so sore if I go do that body pump activity. But I think it's like more than just like even working out. It's like it's like avoiding anything that's going to make us feel uncomfortable at all, right? Like I hear a lot of people struggle with making phone calls, right? Um, it's awkward, it's gonna be annoying that I have to be on hold forever. And so we we don't want to do it, we don't want to like have to feel that uncomfortableness of the conversation or whatever it is. There's something about it that makes us feel uncomfortable. So it's easier to just not do it at all.

Laura:

Or when you're at work and there's an opportunity for a promotion and you're doing really well at your job, and instead of applying for the promotion, you you know, totally forget about like you miss the deadline, you procrastinate and just don't do what you're what you need to do in order to get it, or you know, you just skip it entirely because you don't you're afraid to fail. So like a fear of failure could be part of it. Like, I think sometimes we also just think that it's too good to be true, and that we don't necessarily like um we're not used to things going well and we are uncomfortable with feeling stable.

Michaela:

Yeah, definitely. I think that when your nervous system is so used to chaos and being in fight or flight all the time, you know, once that if there's times where that starts to feel calm, I imagine that like then that can feel unfamiliar and make you feel, you know, you know, scared, like something bad's gonna happen and so, or like something is really wrong, right?

Laura:

Mm-hmm. Yeah, or the uh waiting for the other shoe to drop. I hear that all the time, right? Like something bad's gonna happen, like you were saying, you know. Um like if if I um let if I believe that this is going well, then maybe I'm gonna be disappointed.

Michaela:

Sure.

Laura:

Like I don't I don't want to invest too much in it.

Michaela:

Yeah. And I don't want to feel bad about myself when I don't succeed. You know, if I never go for it, then I don't know that I that I failed. So it's easier to not like be disappointed, right?

Laura:

It's easier to just accept what the you know um the situation that you're used to, the situation that you know. That's why sometimes we stay in bad relationships, right? It's better to know than to have the unknown kind of out there if you try something new. Um, so self-sabotage can look like picking the wrong partner, or you know, could look like procrastination, could look like um just quitting when you know you're doing a good job. Like I remember when I was a kid, I tried out for this cheerleading team and I'm and I worked really hard, I did all the practice, and I like got really, you know, um excited and I was ready to go and I tried out and I made the team and then I quit like a couple months later. I just quit. Like I don't know why. I never have known why maybe I should unpack that with my therapist, but like I never have really thought much about why I did that, but I that was a totally a good example of self-sabotage when things were going well. I just quit the team.

Michaela:

I was like, it's too hard, it's too much work. Uh-huh. Except for all the work that you put into getting on the team. Yeah, exactly.

Laura:

I just did all that work and practiced and you know, made it. And then I just was like, I guess I think if I'm reflecting back now, um, maybe I felt like I was an imposter. I felt like I wasn't really good enough to be there. And so an outsider, like you didn't fit in with the other people.

Michaela:

And like what, you know, I could see like one um, you know, one little thing that didn't go well, you know, it's like, oh, I shouldn't be here. I'll just, you know, do you feel like you still have a habit of quitting, you know, things that are hard?

Laura:

Um, I haven't quit anything in a really long time. Um, but I definitely have I can experience some imposter syndrome sometimes. Like, so I teach, and when I'm teaching, sometimes my students will ask me really good questions or they'll respond to something I say, and it'll hit me in that moment that I'll realize, like, oh, they really think I know what I'm talking about. And it's like, oh, uh, maybe I actually know what I'm talking about. Like, that's weird to think, you know, like it's weird to like think that I'm qualified for this. I was just uh giving a talk yesterday to a group of students and um kind of sharing that journey of like imposter syndrome and every stage of your career, right? We were talking about career progression, and it I was kind of saying, you know, when I was a student, and then when I graduated, and then when I got my license, you know, and then when every at every and then I opened my business at every step of the way, there's this opportunity to either go forward or stall out. And the self-sabotage happens sometimes when we feel like the risk isn't worth the benefit, maybe, or we feel like we're not good enough to continue, or we're afraid of failure. Um, we're suddenly just, you know, ready to give up on everything because of I think a lot of it is fear.

Michaela:

Yeah. I know while you're thinking, while you're talking about that, I was thinking about it and I'm like, I definitely have those moments where I'm like, how did I get here? Like I never could imagine like being here, but I think like I don't allow myself to dwell on things much. I know when we were like um starting up our TMS and I had so many like things that I was like, what's this gonna be like? How is this gonna go? What if this is a problem? And my strategy was like, I'm not gonna think about it. I'm not gonna worry about it. I'm just gonna wait and see what happens because I can't control any of those things. So I was just like, let's just roll with it. And I have a contingency plan. If this happens, if this happens, if this happens, I think I have a good pretty good idea of what I should do if if those things happen. So I'm like, let's just roll and see what happens. And literally none of the things, none of the fears that I had actually were anything that were like legitimate.

Laura:

Right. Everything worked out fine, and it almost always does. And then when something does go wrong, the thing is you're qualified to solve that problem. Like you're good enough to solve the problem that comes up. So when we start that self-sabotage road of procrastination or wanting to quit or feeling like we're not good enough and you know, getting worried about um everything that could go wrong and starting to have those like negative thoughts, you know, we need to remember and sort of replace those negative thoughts with the realization that no matter what does go wrong, I'm gonna be able to manage whatever happens next. That doesn't mean that my business can't fail. It means that if my business fails, I'll be okay and I'll be able to move forward, right? It's not as though everything working out always means it works out the way you wanted it to in the first place.

Michaela:

That's such a good point. I think like success even means like, hey, I'm gonna be responsible for more things, or there's gonna be more expectations of me. And like that, maybe we even fear success because we're gonna have to work harder, or we get scared that like we're not gonna be able to handle the additional responsibilities, and so then like we just choose to not want to do any of the things.

Laura:

Yeah, I can see that being successful does require more of us, right? So it requires more work, it requires more um more effort, more consistency. It requires consistent change, is what it requires. And sometimes we're afraid of change.

Michaela:

Oh, yeah. Yeah, change is hard, and we don't always like all the things that are entailed that are like that we have to do when we have to change, and it's uncomfortable most of the time. And so, you know, and then it can lead to a lot of cognitive distortions or like those mental mistakes that we make, like I'm not good enough, or I don't deserve this, or you know, eventually this will end. I think also like looking at, you know, the type our attachment and like what childhood looked like is going to be a major like thing that influences how we respond to the world today. So if we always knew that like things just never lasted, or you know, we had an inconsistent parent where um we didn't know what we were gonna get that day. If today was gonna be a good day or a bad day, then you know we don't, we kind of just wait. That's like how we view things, and our nervous system adapts to that unpredictable responses to the world. And so then we can continue that into adulthood where we don't know what's gonna happen. Our nervous system has to be prepared for anything, it's on you know, high alert all the time because something bad could happen at any moment.

Laura:

Yeah, when we're in a chaotic environment when we grow up, we're often sort of waiting for that next bad thing to happen, like we were talking about earlier. And then also um not only can what's the next bad thing that's happened, but if I'm calm and if I relax, then I lose control. And if I'm not in control, then I'm not able to make sure that everybody is protected. I'm not able to make sure that I can ready for the next thing, or you know, um, so when things are going well, I'm um sometimes worried that um I can't like accept the joy. I can't feel the joy of it, right? So you just sort of start to find problems to to deal with. Everything sort of becomes an issue, becomes a problem, even if it's not really.

Michaela:

Yeah. Well, and I think that that's kind of how worry like works. And there's a part of our brain that's trying to solve for every possible outcome that can happen sometimes, not everybody, but like when this is happening, we're trying to solve for all of these bad things that could happen. Like, what if this? What if that? What if this? And so we're trying to make sure that we're prepared for every single outcome that could possibly happen. Because if we're not, then what if that thing happens and then I don't know what to do? You know, and so we start to um let that worry control us, and then we don't get joy in the everyday moments, and then we start to create chaos in our life because we can't control all of the things. We can't control, we can't know every outcome. So then we start, you know, picking fights, or we start, you know, you know, slacking off at work, or you know, doing things that you know, because we can't keep all of these things running all the time.

Laura:

Yeah, that hypervigilance is exhausting.

Michaela:

Mm-hmm.

Michaela :

Yeah.

Laura:

Eventually we will burn out.

Michaela:

Yeah, and then that's when we start to see that we can't keep all the things. We're feeling fatigued, we're not able to then we we bed rot a day, and then we're behind on our classes, and or we didn't get all the work done. And so then we start to see some of those depression things come in because you know, that's the other down phase of the response of the nervous system, because we can't stay in that hyper-vigilant, anxious state all the time. So we kind of ebb and flow. And then, you know, that's maybe one of the reasons why we start to not do the things that we were trying to do, because we have all these goals and aspirations that we want to try to get all these things done, but then we start to kind of dip down into that depression and you know, have lose that motivation to do things.

Laura:

Well, and you were talking when we were first discussing this topic, you were mentioning the dopamine, right? Where once the dopamine stops rewarding you for the good stuff, then what?

Michaela:

Yeah, it's not very fun, right, to do the things, but our brain can get really excited about something for a little while, right? Yeah. And then, you know, everything well, in that moment, everything sounds like a good idea, right? And maybe we forgot to account for some of the you know negative variables because we were super, super excited and like except like happy about the the positive things, then we didn't anticipate the fact that, like, oh, we double booked ourselves for another thing, or you know, I have too much going on, now I'm drained. And so then we start like something has to give at some point.

Laura:

Mm-hmm. Yeah. And when we stop getting that rush of the novelty wears off, right? When the novelty wears off, we stop getting that dopamine hit when we get an accomplishment. And so when things are going well, then maybe we need that chaos in order to create new dopamine relief. Like that's a good point. So we then create problems to solve and or we go and we procrastinate or we doom scroll, or like you were saying, you know, there's all these different ways that we cope with that to get that dopamine relief that gets in the way of our success, right? So it's not necessarily like a direct sabotage, it's just a I'm doing all these other things, so I can't be successful.

Michaela:

Yeah, that's a good point. Um, I definitely think that um, excuse me, dopamine it plays a huge, excuse me, a huge role in um, you know, for me specifically, I I love like I start, I want to start all the things. I want to do all of the things, but then like you end up overextending yourself, or maybe you're not as good at trying to remodel your kitchen as you thought you were, and then you have to try to figure out how to pick up the pieces.

Laura:

Right, exactly. Like we maybe are overcommitted, saying yes to too many things at once, um, starting too many new things because of that rush, and then now you're like, I can't manage it all, and then I'm just gonna flop.

Michaela:

Right. Yeah, but sometimes there are things that we really, really want to do, and like for whatever reason, it feels like we're not on track to do them, right? We put this like deadline of like, well, by this age, I should be here because that's what most people say that you should be at this place. So how do I how do I get there when like I'm not capable of doing the day-to-day things to get to that place?

Laura:

Yeah, that makes sense when I hear that from people all the time. I hear, you know, I should be like, I should be doing this, I should be here, I should have accomplished X, Y, Z by now. And so sometimes, even though things are going well in my life, I'm putting this expectation on myself that I'm not meeting, and that's making me feel disappointed, and that's making me feel unsuccessful, and that's making me procrastinate or um, you know, struggle in other ways that are getting me in the way of my success. And so I think we need to start working differently with ourselves when we have that come up, right? Like, and I say all the time, I talk to my stuff all the time. Like, I always say, like, oh, hey, procrastination, like, what's going on? I see you. Or hey, you know, so like in this case, like, hey, self-sabotage, like what are you doing? What are you trying to protect me from? What are you trying to help me with? You know, starting to really think about how is this helpful in some way, right? What would I be doing if I wasn't self-sabotaging right now? What would I be doing if I wasn't distracting myself with my phone? What would I be doing if I wasn't procrastinating and doing the dishes, you know, and you know, walking my dog and fluffing the pillows and sweeping the floor and doing all these other things besides working.

Michaela:

Some procrastinativity, I've heard people call that.

Laura:

I love that term.

Michaela:

But it sounds like you're saying that you are being curious about why you're having this behavior rather than shaming yourself for having it.

Laura:

Yeah, I love that. Shame is just gonna make it worse. Shaming ourselves activates it perpetuates our defense mechanisms because shame itself is a threat. So when the threat comes in the form of shame, then our defense mechanisms get worse. They don't stop doing it. We need to come from safety, and curiosity brings safety. So when we have safety and curiosity, then we can actually track what's going on and we can say what is happening when, you know, what's the feeling that comes up right before I start to sabotage? What's the feeling that comes up right before I decide to get on my phone or I decide to go outside and take a walk? Or, you know, what am I the like some of these are healthy, healthy coping skills, some of them are not healthy coping skills, but the ultimate line is I'm coping with something, right?

Michaela:

Right, right. And so that comes back to trying to like understand what's triggering the procrastination or avoidance responses, so that if you can, you know, understand, hey, what feeling was this that I'm trying to avoid, then you can work through the real cause of things versus trying to be mad at the behavior, right? It's just like a kid, right? We kids have dysregulation and they have this big blow up and their emotions are all over the place, and parents want to punish them because of the behavior, they want to punish the behavior. I'm not saying I've never done that before because the behavior causes parental dysregulation, right? But when you can understand the cause of the symptom, that's just a symptom, right? Our avoidance is just a symptom. So if we can really understand why am I feeling this way, then that is something that's actionable. That's something we have control over because we can say, Oh, I'm scared. I feel scared that I'm gonna fail. But I can also tell myself that failure doesn't mean that I'm bad. It doesn't mean that I'm broken, it doesn't mean that I can't fit that it's unfixable. Failure happens and that's okay. We can work through that failure. Failure doesn't mean death.

Laura:

Yeah, failure doesn't mean that I'm a failure, it means that this thing that I'm doing isn't working right now and I need to make a change.

Michaela :

Yes.

Michaela:

I also think that if you sabotage, you're like a hundred percent guaranteed to fail.

Laura:

Right. That's a good point. I could take the risk and not be guaranteed to fail, and there's a chance of success, or I could sabotage and be a hundred percent guaranteed to fail. Right. That's a good way to look at it. I'm gonna choose a chance of success personally. Yeah, I think so too.

Michaela:

Also, the things give you dopamine, so it's worth it, right?

Laura:

It's worth it to get that dopamine. And you know, it's also important to learn how to tolerate those feelings, right? Those feelings of distress when we reframe and we use healthy coping mechanisms and we remind ourselves that it's gonna be okay, that it's going to be um manageable no matter what the outcome is. We have to learn to tolerate good feelings as much as we have to tolerate bad feelings.

Michaela:

Yeah.

Laura:

Sometimes good feelings can feel scary because it when they go away, you know, it's a crash.

Michaela:

Yeah. And I hear people say that all the time like, I never want to be back there again, right? So they're gonna do anything they can to avoid being in that place. And it's like, if I if I don't try, uh status quo feels fine. I'm fine here, like this is fine, wouldn't fine, right? Like fine isn't great, fine isn't good, it's just okay, right? But I'm but I like this is this is the devil I know, right? Like this is the thing that I know, and I I I'm okay here, where like there's so much unknown. Like, I don't want to feel any of those things if I have to go back to that place where I wasn't very good, right? And so it's very scary to think about like being back in a dark place if you were ever there before. But I like your you know suggestion about being able to regulate your nervous system and be okay with you know feelings. And I think again, feelings are information, they tell us that something's important to us, and so feelings aren't something to fight against, they're they're things, they're information that you can take and you can stay with fear and anxiety, or you can also, you know, do coping skills like grounding yourself and breathing and you know, um help yourself feel calm even in the face of the unknown, and we don't have control over you know everything in our life.

Laura:

I can be okay even if everything else is not okay. That's the phrase that I use for myself a lot, is like I can be okay even if the stuff around me is not okay. And that's true. I can be okay on the inside. We talked before about like the defense reaction to shame, the safety reaction to curiosity is what we're really looking for. We need that safety, an internal sense of safety is the antidote to that distress that you're experiencing. So we need to find that internal sense of safety in order to then go forward and make a decision that's based in the present moment reality and what our actual goals are. And if we're staying in alignment with our goals and our values, we're probably not going to self-sabotage.

Michaela:

Yes. I love that.

Laura:

Yeah.

Michaela:

Say that again about our safety.

Laura:

Yeah, an internal sense of safety is the antidote to the stress.

Michaela:

Yeah, that's that's like clutch right there. Yeah. And you take nothing away from anything else we say, that's like the key here. So, okay, we talked about like breath work and grounding skills and some of those things that we've talked a lot about. Is there anything else that we can do to create an internal sense of safety?

Laura:

I like to use like a clock to manage my feelings, like man, like tolerate my feelings for a period of time. So, like sometimes um I call it time boxing or you know, just like letting it go by. So sometimes they call it like ride the wave, but basically I'm saying, okay, I'm gonna count down 90 seconds. And if this feeling stays, then I'm gonna have to try something else. But let's try this first. Like, let's try to just wait it out, this 90 seconds. Most of the time, feelings don't last longer than 90 seconds when you allow them to exist and you don't try to fight with them. So I like to use that experience. So it's like, if I'm starting to self-sabotage, I'm starting to feel, you know, vulnerable, or I'm starting to feel afraid, or I'm starting to feel shame or disappointment in myself, then I'm gonna say, all right, let me have 90 seconds to like let this go by. And then I'm gonna focus on something that's going on right now and then refocus myself on what my goals are, and after that, see if I can go forward with the task.

Michaela:

I like that. What about the opposite being true? Like, couldn't you let like time box yourself for joy and success, like feelings so that you don't rush to reject them and then let yourself like have like a mantra or something that says, it's okay to let this last.

Laura:

Oh, I love that. It's okay to let this last. Noticing that joy for 90 seconds gives you the opportunity to just like relish in it, be like, I'm just it's just a minute and a half, right? It's just a minute and a half. I can I can love this and be proud of myself, and I can notice how I see myself in this moment and what it says about me when I'm in this 90 seconds, and then I can go back to like just being relieved that nothing, you know, went catastrophically wrong. Yeah. And you know, the 90 seconds, I love that it works both ways. So time boxing is helpful. Um, another internal sense of safety is to use your senses, like use your physical senses when your brain and your body feel out of control, like get control over something physical, like using um a fidget or whatever. Um, I sometimes like recommend like taking a bite out of a lemon or eating something really sour or something really spicy because it's jarring to your senses, and it's like that's what your brain is going to pay attention to. And so when you need to really just reset yourself, you can find control in your senses. So you're getting taking control or like having an Ice cube or holding an ice cube or putting your hand under ice water, whatever. Those are kind of things that give you access to your senses again and to kind of take the edge off of whatever emotion is going on. And then another thing I do is I look around for things that make me feel good. So like I like the color pink. So I'm gonna look around. Oh, I see that pink and gold basket over there in the corner. That's kind of nice. I like it. So you're finding things in your environment that make you feel good and okay. And so that can kind of evoke a sense of internal safety too.

Michaela:

Sure. Yeah, I usually talk to clients about having like in their office or in their bedroom or wherever they like their living room where they spend a lot of time, having something that they can like be their like point of reference, and they can use that specific thing to help regulate their nervous system in that moment. So it's like something that's familiar, and they can like look at it, they can describe it in their brain. Like, hey, this is a vase, it's like white flowers, it's a white vase, it's got green stems. Obviously, it's fake, so there's no smell. Like, what does it feel like? You know, so you can kind of touch, touch it. And um, for kids, like, we'll all oftentimes talk about like a stuffy and let them like squeeze it and feel it, and you know, that can help ground them back into the present moment too.

Laura:

Yeah, and specifically a safe place is always really helpful, just like an imagined place that makes you feel safe, you know. Um, I like the beach, some people like forests, some people like water in general, like being on a lake, like paddle boarding or you know, sitting on uh the patio, sipping coffee while you're looking out at the lake. Like there's so many different ways that you can visualize safety. Um, even, you know, I don't know if this sounds silly, but even just like having a life preserver or like a little lifesaver toy or something like that, like a life raft toy can remind you like, oh, I am safe in this office. Like I'm actually safe right here, right now. Maybe there's chaotic things happening, but like it's like an anchor, you know. I also like crystals and stones that people can hold and feel in their hands that are good anchors, and also, you know, depending on how where you are in your woo-woo scale of like allowance that of this, but like I think they give energy, whatever. Some people might not believe that, but you know, um, I love that too.

Michaela:

Yeah, I know when you talk about visualization, I think about the fact that some of us in the world don't visualize things as well as others. And so I just throw out there that like, yeah, I have a hard time seeing pictures in my mind, like some people who can literally like see them and manipulate them in their brain. And so, you know, for those of you out there that are like me, I think, you know, just closing your eyes and and it's like you can remember places, and so you can use like some kind of memory that allows you to kind of get into that place. Um, and so like I've been to this like specific beach in in Minnesota on one of the lakes, and I can, you know, imagine myself and I can imagine what the surroundings like I can remember what they looked like, and I can use that as like a touch point for for the visualization. So that's always nice.

Laura:

Yeah, I love that. A memory is a good place to start if you don't have a visualization or a creative idea or something like that. It doesn't have to be these these tricks aren't, you know, rocket science. These are just little things that we do, they don't have to be complex, they're just simple things that you can do because all we're trying to do is tolerate distress for a minute. All we're trying to do is change our state of mind from threat to safe.

Michaela:

Right. So I think it's important to remember that self-sabotage is often a form of self-protection. And a lot of the time it's rooted in experiences that are maybe from the past and not really specifically related to what's going on today, even though it's coming up for us today.

Laura:

Yeah, they are. It's often triggered from um things that we haven't really understood or that we don't even know about. And that's okay. We don't always have to know in order to redirect our attention to safety.

Michaela:

Right. And through using some of the things that we discussed today, you can change your pattern by building a place of safety and self-trust.

Laura:

Yeah, that's great. So I think that's a good place to leave it for today. Thank you so much. I love this conversation, and hopefully, we'll all move a little bit closer to our goals and stop self-sabotaging. So thank you so much for listening to Why Am I Like This? If you like our show, please leave us a rating and review on your favorite podcast platform. Follow the show and share it with your friends. This episode was written and produced by me, Laura Wood, and Michaela Bieber. Our theme song is Making Ends Meet by Thick as Thieves. And a special thanks to CoreSelf, Benavieri Counseling, and Active Healing Psychiatric Services for sponsoring our show.

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Dr. Michaela Beaver

Host
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Laura Olivieri Wood

Host