Why is Vulnerability So Scary?!

We unpack why vulnerability triggers fear and how armor—perfectionism, people pleasing, overexplaining—protects us while keeping connection out of reach. We share concrete ways to practice safe vulnerability, build shame resilience, and bring more gratitude, play, and empathy into daily life.

• defining vulnerability as uncertainty, risk and emotional exposure
• childhood wounds shaping adult defenses and armor
• reframing vulnerability as courage not weakness
• authenticity mantras and grounding self-talk
• oversharing versus discerning, earned sharing
• shame spirals, empathy and co-regulation
• accountability without self-condemnation
• nervous system basics and limbic memory
• gratitude practice, play and creativity to rewire attention
• raising joy’s baseline and building resilience with small wins

You can find Brene Brown's book here: https://www.audible.com/pd/The-Power-of-Vulnerability-Audiobook/B00CYKDYBQ?srsltid=AfmBOorcZ3FVBRVjqxdS5iOFUz2iVZGe61LZ2yzKB7hkyiSWIXxeIvAE

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Laura's Free Course on Emotional Development and Regulation:
https://benavieri.com/neuroception-sign-up/

This show is sponsored by:

Core Self

www.coreself.org

Benavieri Counseling & Coaching
www.benavieri.com

Active Healing Psychiatric Services
www.activehealingpsych.com

Chapters

• 0:00 Setting The Stage: Why Vulnerability
• 2:00 Defining Vulnerability And Safety
• 5:30 Childhood Lessons And Armor
• 10:40 Vulnerability Isn’t Weakness
• 16:30 Authenticity Mantras That Help
• 21:40 Oversharing, Shame, And Boundaries
• 27:20 Trauma, Little T Wounds, And People Pleasing
• 33:30 Nervous System, Limbic Memory, And Fear
• 39:20 Accountability Without Self-Condemnation
• 45:10 Safe Ways To Practice Vulnerability
• 50:20 Naming Shame And Asking For Support

Transcript

Laura: 0:01

Hello and welcome to Why Am I Like This, the podcast for those who didn't get enough topics as a child. I'm Laura Wood, and I'm a trauma therapist.

Michaela: 0:12

Hi, and I'm Michaela Beaver. I'm psychiatric nurse practitioner. Michaela, why are we doing this podcast? We want to help you understand yourself a bit better. How the things you learned about yourself and the world in childhood are still affecting you today. We want to figure out why we are like this. So three of those things we wonder about ourselves, like why am I so jumpy? Why am I so interested? Why do I take everything first? Why are my thoughts always so negative? Why do I feel about this all the time?

Laura: 0:49

Yes. Today, we are talking about being vulnerable. Let's try to address the following question. Why does vulnerability feel frightening even when we know it's good for us? How can people start practicing vulnerability in a state, non-overwhelming way and without oversharing and re-traumatizing ourselves? And what does a whole-hearted life actually look like in daily practice, especially for those people feeling from trauma, anxiety, or perfectionism? So let's get into it. We have listened to Brene Brown and we are taking some tips from her today. Um, what is vulnerability?

Michaela: 1:34

That's a good question. So I I don't really have a great definition of it, so I'm gonna be curious to hear what you have to say. But I think like it's it's like this state in which you like could be harmed, like physically, mentally, emotionally. Like it, it's like this this feeling that you know, like you're not gonna be safe, like it's dangerous almost.

Laura: 2:00

Yeah, yeah. So in Brene Brown's The Power of Vulnerability, that we are kind of taking some tips from, she defines vulnerability as basically uncertainty, risk, and emotional exposure. So, like when I think about that um uncertainty, like any kind of just not knowing, like waiting to find something out, um, waiting to um, you know, hear if someone, if a loved one is okay, like after an accident or something like that. Like there's vulnerability there because you're scared. Uncertainty can bring in a lot of fear. Um, uncertainty can bring in a sense of a lack of control. So, like those things I feel like go into vulnerability and um and a sense of like helplessness, right? And then risk, anything that has risk is, you know, she uses the example of like loving someone. Um, and this brings in emotional exposure too. Like when you love someone, like there's no guarantee they're gonna love you back, right? So making that choice to love them anyway, and that's vulnerable. That's a risk, right? Because you could get hurt anytime that you could get hurt physically or emotionally. So, like what you're talking about, that safety, right? That is vulnerability and emotional exposure. Like I'm exposed to have bad feelings, like those bad feelings can come up into my life and make me feel upset or disappointed, um, or feel ashamed. And shame is really scary and hard to feel. Um, and we'll talk more about that too. But I think you know, that's kind of how I read or hear her explanation of vulnerability.

Michaela: 3:42

Yes, I love that. I think that that's so, so important. So why do we feel threatened or why do we not like feeling vulnerable?

Laura: 3:54

Oh my gosh. Because it's so hard, right? Like, so I think about our lives and things that we've learned in childhood that taught us basically to never let that happen to us again, right? So, for example, um, you know, you're in elementary school and your teacher like says something mean to you or like makes fun of you like in front of the class or like calls you out for, you know, let's say you raise your hand and you get the answer wrong and your teacher says, like, nice try, like, or your teacher kind of makes a comment or or just ignores you, and then you feel immediately awful. You feel ashamed, you feel hurt, you feel stupid, you feel rejected, and then you think to yourself, I'm never gonna let that happen again. Right. And then your brain turns on a switch that makes sure that for you'll never raise your hand in class again, and you kind of like chisel away that part of you and like shut it down. Um, when we are being vulnerable, we're allowing that stuff to be exposed again. We're allowing the possibility of rejection, we're allowing the possibility of being seen and known and and really not accepted. Like I think that's why we don't like it.

Michaela: 5:20

For sure. Well, and that makes me think of like one of the things, um, especially I think we think about this with men, but I think it's also like present with us as you know, everyone. But vulnerability means weakness. But vulnerability means that like, you know, we're not strong or we're not good enough, or like, you know, we can't, we're not in control.

Laura: 5:44

Yeah, I hear that a lot from um from people who have been taught that, right? Like that vulnerability is weakness. Like I hear, you know, I can't show up as weak, I can't cry, like people will think that I'm weak, or I can't um ask for help because people will think that I'm weak, or people will think that I'm um I'm not doing well. People will know that I'm not strong, they'll know that I'm not capable. Um, I think like I remember when I was um younger, before I did my own therapy work, like not as my own therapist, but like before I got a therapist and became, you know, did my own healing. Um I I remember saying to my mom, I'll never let someone truly like know me ever. Like I was in a relationship at the time and we had been together for like three or four years, and you know, she was talking about like, do you think you'll get married or this or that? I'm like, no way, right? Like, I'm never gonna let someone know me and be and like have access to like my core self, my core being. Like, I'm never gonna do that ever. That's just too much of a risk. Like, that's stupid. Like, I would even go as far as to say, like, that's stupid. That just is irresponsible. I would never do that. And um, like I distinctly remember having this conversation with her. And um now, you know, I've done a lot of work and I I have um the capacity to experience vulnerability, but there are still things that I think to myself, like, oh, if someone knew this about me, like, would they really accept me? Would they really think I'm an okay person? Would I really deserve love? Like, you know, still those hurtful things in there.

Michaela: 7:35

Yeah, for sure. Well, and that's one of the things that I loved about um the book. And, you know, I really identified with was like um her authenticity mantras. And, you know, even though we are scared to let people see the true us, you know, we we still want to show up in that way because it's more meaningful. And so hers are um, show up and let yourself be seen or don't shrink. And, you know, that aligned with me a lot because I know we've talked about this before, um, but I have my own where it's like I can only be me and that's good enough, right? Like I just have to remind myself that like even when I say things that are stupid, or like there's the potential that it could have hurt someone, or that they actually really saw the real me, right? And I think that that's where it really comes back into play is like, oh, like that was the real me, and what if they don't like me? And you know, what does that mean about me? Um, and so I really like I really thought that that was um important, you know. Do you have your own authenticity mantra?

Laura: 8:46

I so I'm thinking about this as I was reading and listening to the book. Um, I was thinking about mantras and how important they are and how helpful they are, but realizing I don't necessarily have a mantra other than, you know, my like calm mantras. I have like calm mantras that I use in order to help me re-stabilize when I'm like in distress. And I'll often say something like, I'm not gonna die. Um, if this doesn't go the way that I want, um, this is only temporary. Um, and I'll kind of remind myself like I'm going to get through this and I don't need that right now. Like, I don't, I won't die if this doesn't work out for me right this second. Like a lot of times it's like, it's not, we're not looking for stuff that's gonna change our minds and lives permanently. We're literally like getting through the minute to minute of the day. And so we it just needs to work for a second. It doesn't have to be this like permanent life-changing mantra.

Michaela: 9:51

Yeah, for sure. I think that's good. Um, well, in this, I was thinking about like we're watching the the Hunger Games over the weekend. And I was thinking about this, and I was like, you know that part where they like want her to like be this like here, like this leader, like this this like voice or whatever of the people as the you know, the mocking jay or whatever. And she stands up there and she's like, she says her line and it's like so fake. It's like unempowering. It's like nobody would stand behind that. Like it looks just like really horrible. And they really had to get her to be in the scene, like in the scene, in the moment, so she could feel the vulnerability of the people. And then she was able to connect with them in a real level, right? And in like a real way, she was able to be her authentic self and show up in that way that that did make them connect with her. And I think that the same thing is true in our own lives too. Like if we try to follow the script or we try to be, we're comparing ourselves to others, and we just constantly try to be a carbon copy of somebody else so that we can fit in so that we don't ever have to feel vulnerable, then we never really connect with people and we end up feeling alone and like we're not good enough and shameful. And it's like, well, we really never let ourselves be seen to begin with. We never showed up as our authentic self, and nobody nobody connected with us because we weren't being real with ourselves.

Laura: 11:26

Yeah, and we're not connected with ourselves, right? Like when um when I'm doing therapy work with somebody, like a lot of the time, part like a big chunk of the work is to connect with their self. And people will ask me, like, well, I don't know, I don't even know who that is. Like, I don't know what I like, I don't know what I want, I don't know who I am or how I feel, or or you know, what this life is like for me, because I've spent so much time with that armor on, and that armor being trying to fit in, that armor being something that is protecting me from vulnerability, like trying to show up as perfect all the time, um, doing everything on my own, never asking for help, or um never like me, like never letting anyone see the true, like really know me, never like revealing those, like those parts of myself that I feel, you know, nervous about or that I'm not sure about, like not letting those people, those perceived flaws, um, not letting anybody see that means that I'm not really showing myself who I really am. I'm not really connected with myself. And we can't connect with others any more than we are able to connect with ourselves, I feel like, you know.

Michaela: 12:47

Yeah, I think that's so good. Um, that makes me think of um my kids are like super into K pop right now. And um my youngest, he's obsessed with the golden song. And I was thinking about the lyrics of that song, and it was like um basically like how we don't know how to believe that we're the queen that we're meant to be, and how we live two lives and we try to play both sides, and that you know, we're done hiding and we're ready to be shining like you're born to be, right? And so now he wants golden pants and golden underwear and golden everything. So it's so funny, but I I really think that like that makes a lot of sense, you know, where like we're we're putting on this armor and we're trying to like be this version of ourselves to protect ourselves. We have our like work version and we have our like home version and we have our like I'm going out with this friend version, and now I'm going out with this friend version, and we try to like adapt. And obviously, some of that is necessary. We're not gonna, you know, maybe we try to engage in the interest, the common interests that we have, right? That's makes sense. But like, um we're when we're always trying to be different versions of ourselves to like make people like us. Um, that's us like putting on that armor and saying, like, I can't let you see the true me. And like when I'm with you, you're not funny. You don't laugh at my I'm afraid you won't laugh at my jokes. I'm not gonna tell you my jokes. I'm gonna think them in my head, and then I'm gonna I'm gonna be too scared to say it out loud. Um, and so that, you know, that doesn't ever make us feel like we can be our full selves, and that's not fun.

Laura: 14:44

No, and uh you know, our armor is built over a long period of time, it's built on top, it's like scar tissue, right? Like it's built on top of many wounds over the years, and you know, we talk about trauma as this like big T, you know, capital T thing, and a lot of people don't resonate with the term trauma, but really if you think about what trauma means, trauma is a word that means wound. So everybody has experienced an emotional wound. Everyone, none of us get out of this unscathed. Like we all experience emotional rejection, we all experience pain from our childhood, and we learn everything we learn about the world is what teaches us, you know, is what we kind of see how we see the world in adulthood, right? Like so everything we learn about the world in childhood is the lens through which we see the world as an adult, unless we change it on purpose. So when like I have a I've worked with a little girl who she was share sharing with me that she um made her mom a birthday card and she gave them her mom the birthday card, and the and her mom was really busy at the time and in the kitchen doing all these things, right? Which we can all relate to. And she was like, Oh, thanks, and she just set it down. And the little girl was crushed, right? Like she was so hurt that her mom didn't like acknowledge her and recognize like that she was giving her this thing, and she thought that and her expectations were that she would go to her mom, and her mom would be so happy and give her a hug and like be really grateful and like be excited about the card and and and they would have this moment of connection. But because she didn't get that, she was rejected in that moment. That's how she felt that like really stuck with her, and so she shut down the part of herself that seeks out connection. And so instead of seeking connection in an authentic way, now her go-to move is with armor to people please or to like be helpful all the time, to make mom happy in a different way, to make mom happy by um being by contributing to the busyness, right? Like in a good in a helpful way, like by doing the dishes or offering to be helpful in another way to relieve mom's stress, because she realized that that is going to get her at least like a a nugget of connection when she really was like seeking this like authentic, genuine connection, which and when she got rejected, her brain was like, I'm never gonna let that happen to me again. So there's the then you put on that armor, right? That's how that gets developed.

Michaela: 17:35

Yeah. Well, I hate that for her, and I think that there's probably all of us. I mean, I know I have moments where I know that that was true for me too. And um I think that like I've had like trauma and I've had those little tea traumas, and I really almost feel like the those little consistent messages are they build up to be this huge, big boulder. And you know, sometimes those can be the things that shape us more than, you know, if it's a one-off thing, right? Like this one big big T thing could not be the big thing that's really actually impacting your day-to-day life as much, you know. Obviously, both are important and both have different impacts and have impacts in our life. And but I think it's important that people don't discount how that is shaping how they show up in the world. And I I mean, I think that like majority of my patients all identify with being people pleasers um and wanting to make people happy because that calms their nervous system. And so yeah.

Laura: 18:51

Yeah, absolutely. That the you know, vulnerability, the risk that we take is scary. And when we're vulnerable and we get rejected, especially as children, like because as children, like think about a child is the most vulnerable that we can be when we're kids. We're so dependent on our caregivers. And when we're vulnerable and we're rejected, that trains our nervous system. So like our neurobiology really changes and it starts to, you know, activate that limbic system we talk about all the time where our fight or flight comes from. And when our limbic system is activated, we're, you know, we're going to respond in a more sort of like primal way and in a defensive way. We're gonna defend ourselves against that pain in any by any means necessary. And when that happens, anytime that happens in childhood, we experience this wound, our limbic system activates like we're learning something. And that's why that's how that brama kind of teaches us about the world, it teaches us about ourselves. What's safe, what's not safe, who we are, who it's okay for us to be, and what our expectations should be about other people and how they're going to treat us. So like those things get remembered when our limbic system's activated.

Michaela: 20:14

Yeah. And it's so funny because once that kid becomes an adult, they rationalize that that thing was stupid, that it shouldn't have mattered that much. And I think that, like, you know, I think that there's probably more than one adult sitting there listening to this going, well, you know, not like why, why is that the response? Like, I'm never gonna feel that way again, versus it being a disappointment and just being like, okay, well, I'll get connection another way, or uh, you know, that like she was just busy, you know, the the kids don't think that way. And I think that, you know, it it it would be important for us as adults, and I hear this, you know, I hear adults say these things all the time, you know, just it's not that big of a deal. You're fine, get over it, whatever. Instead of being like, Oh, that really mattered to you. And like, I think that that's where our shame comes in, is because now we're mad at ourselves or we're you know, in our stuff and being like, Well, I couldn't get that as an I couldn't get it as a kid, so you I don't know why you think it's you have to get it too. And so we have these thoughts about you know, things, but it but it's like our shame kicks in and we're like, Well, if I you know, I don't want to say sorry for this because then that means I'm bad. And if I'm bad, then like everything, then then all bets are off, right? I'm gonna, we're all dead.

Laura: 21:46

Yeah, when that's so funny when that you bring up kind of kind of being accountable, right? Apologizing is vulnerable, being accountable is vulnerable. We when we're accountable, we're saying, you know, I recognize that I hurt you. And in order to do that, we have to be okay with the fact that we hurt someone else, and that we have to know that that doesn't mean we're bad, right? And that's hard to do. So if the message as a kid is when you like never hurt another person, like only bad people hurt other people, and selfish people hurt other people, right? I hear that all the time about being self, like, oh, that's selfish of me to think about myself, or I'm selfish if I do anything that bothers someone else, that is um, that gets in someone's way, like basically taking up space. All those things are selfish and bad, and only bad people do that stuff. If that's the case, then I'm less likely to be accountable because being accountable means I have to face that I did something wrong or I did something hurtful or harmful. And that doesn't mean that I'm bad. It means that I my behavior impacted another person in a negative way, and I need to say I'm sorry for that, and I need to change my behavior and make something, you know, make something else happen in the future.

Michaela: 23:08

Yeah, a hundred percent. Oh, but what about the the opposite, right? So um not everybody is afraid to say sorry. There are those of us which I feel like I don't know if this would go into the category. What did what did um she say? Like the people who just like blurt out the stuff, right?

Laura: 23:28

Like I don't know.

Michaela: 23:30

Well, anyways, so there are some people that are out there that will also be the first to call out their stuff because it's actually they're also trying to avoid being vulnerable because like if I tell you how bad I am, then you can't then like I'm I'm owning it and I'm creating the narrative for it. And so like if I make a mistake, I'm gonna be like, oh yeah, I messed up, like, and then um like tell everybody all of our stuff.

Laura: 23:58

Yeah, like I'm the worst, I always screw things up, I'm so stupid. I'm so like, or over apologizing, people who say sorry for everything, even if it's not their fault. I am the guilty of that sometimes. Um we're all over apologize, and I'm like, oh, I'm sorry that this happened, I'm sorry this, I'm sorry that. And it's like, stop saying sorry, it's not your fault. Like it doesn't matter, you're it's not about you, you know? And we're taking that on as a that's like a shame response, that that response of um kind of apologizing for existing in a way. And when we overshare, we're often doing that, like you said, as a preemptive way to say, like, there's nothing worse anyone else can say about me because I already know I'm the worst. Um, but what we're also doing is we're sort of seeking this inauthentic connection. When we're um when we're oversharing, we're wanting someone to like get it. We're wanting someone to say, um, that's really awful. I can't believe that happened to you. We're wanting to be like validated in a way, but we're doing it so inappropriately that we'll never get that real validation and connection, right? So when we're oversharing and we're telling everybody all of our stuff all the time, we're not what she says is we're not telling the story to someone who's earned the right to hear it. And when we tell the story who's set to someone who's earned the right to hear it, then we can get that authentic connection back because we're not just dumping on someone expecting them to like validate us all the time.

Michaela: 25:26

Right. Well, we're also we're trying to prove that our opinion about ourselves is true. Because if we over with the other thing that she says is that if you overshare to the wrong people and then you don't get that authentic connection, then that proves to yourself that you already believe about yourself. So it's almost like trying to um manage your vulnerability in a in that way versus you know actually sharing it with someone who's earned the right where they can actually, you know, empathize with us and really make us feel seen.

Laura: 25:59

Right. Like I'm not being truly vulnerable if I don't really expect the person to have any kind of connection with us with me in the first place. Yes, exactly. And it's interesting when we try to imagine how people can start practicing vulnerability in a safe way where they're not um re-traumatizing themselves, where they're not being overwhelmed by the affect that's going on. I think a lot of that comes with self-awareness. So that going back to that connection to ourself, there's a lot of people out there who um have a concept of themselves that is very far away from their selves in actuality, right? So, like who I think I am is very different from who I actually am. And a lot of the time that's because I'm so um in my head all the time and I'm never actually being authentic, right? Like who I think I am. I think I'm this person who is giving and caring and who wants to, who shows up, who is um, you know, who is like a good parent and a good spouse and a good person. And I think I'm all these things, but my behaviors don't demonstrate that. Like a lot of the time we don't really know ourselves, and because we're not accountable, we're not connecting with ourselves, we're not able to really understand how our behaviors impact other people. So being um being authentic means being accountable, recognizing when the difference between who we think we are and who we actually are is genuinely causing us trouble in our lives, and then taking making change. We have to take steps to do something differently, and that part is is vulnerable as well. We have to have that self-awareness first before we can really start practicing vulnerability.

Michaela: 27:57

Yeah, definitely. And I I think that um, you know, one of the things that she talks about in the book as well is that um like just calling shame out and actually talking about it is is diffusing for it as well. And I and I think that like um I want to be friends with her friends in this like whole thing that you know, her friends seem like her, like it just seems like I I need people in my life that are like able to go call you on your stuff, you know.

Laura: 28:29

I know I totally agree with that. It's important to have a good support system too, and that's practicing vulnerability. We have to be able to trust our friends, we have to be able to call them and know that they're gonna answer and recognize that if they don't answer, it's not because of us, it's not because they don't like us anymore or they don't want to hear from us, but not making not taking that narrative too far, but really like trusting that they're who they say they are and who they behave to be too, right? We have to trust people and that's really vulnerable too.

Michaela: 29:02

Yeah, but I also think that she made a good point. Like if I call, if she she said something about like, if I call my friend and I'm like, hey, I really messed up at work, like I'm I'm you know, whatever, and then versus like being like, all right, I'm in a shame spiral, like, you know, I'm feeling bad about myself in that kind of way and getting a different response because you're you're actually like calling it out and naming it as what it really is. And people, you know, can show up for you in that way when you like actually let yourself be vulnerable and say, like, I'm not just I didn't just mess up. I like really feel bad about myself right now. Like, I need I need your help.

Laura: 29:40

Yeah, you're reaching out for authentic connection, you're reaching out for help, you're reaching out for someone to meet you where you're at, and you are trusting that that person is capable of doing that because they've earned the right to hear your story. And calling out, you know, naming it, um, saying this is what this is, this is a shame spiral, can be really helpful too, because we're um letting the shame kind of be known and be seen and be understood when shame's job is often to keep us isolated, shame's job is to keep the status quo, shame's job is to keep us from telling another person what we need, shame's job is to really um suppress our sense of ourself. And so when we don't let shame do those things, and we say, shame's trying to do this to me right now, and I need some help to counteract it, she says empathy and co-regulation is the antidote to shame. And so I love that. I love the empathy is the antidote to shame because empathy is I see you and I accept you.

Michaela: 30:59

Yeah, I think that that is so, so powerful. And I've seen it happen like with my own kids, right? Like when there is a shame spiral happening and I'm like, I still have you. There's a huge difference in response versus if I'm like, you know, I have my own agenda and I'm just like, no, we're doing this my way. Like, I can't, I'm not with you in this. I'm like, you know, I'm not gonna um jump in the hole, right? Like I'm just I I can't right now, right? And then it's met with more resistance and more fear and more anger, more shutdown. And um, you know, I I think like just even changing the way that I think about things has been really huge. I'm seeing like after listening to this, I'm seeing I'm seeing that shame in so many different places. And and I think like helping other people see, you know, what doing like a lot of work with like parents and children, for example, especially kids with ADHD neurodiversity, where they get a lot of negative, you know, feedback. I I find that, you know, helping that that adult be like, hey, this this is shame. Like this is them feeling like they're bad. And like when you look at it from that different perspective as the adult or the other person, it doesn't even have to be an adult, it could be my husband, right? If I'm looking at it from a different perspective of like, oh, this is your this is what's happening for you, it's a lot easier to sit in that than it is if I think, well, you're just being, you know, stubborn.

Laura: 32:39

You just want to get your way. Yeah. So another big part of this is that um self-talk, right? Like you're selfish, you just want to get your way, you're being stubborn, you're being like you're bad somehow, right? When we talk to ourselves like that, it reinforces the idea that we can't be vulnerable. So it does the opposite of what we're trying to do. When we're trying to make a change, we have to change the way we talk to ourselves to rewire those connections in our brain. Because what wires together fires together. If every single time I make a mistake, I say, like, oh, I'm so stupid, then that is going to be my automatic thought. So now my automatic thought is reinforcing my shame. My automatic thought is preventing me from being vulnerable, right? Like all of that stuff is happening and it's happening without my consent. So I need to make a change and say, no, automatic thought, that's an option, but I'm not going with that. I'm gonna make a different thought. So instead of saying I'm so stupid, what can I say? I can say, that was a huge mistake. I regret that. Um, we can say, or that was an accident, I'm distressed, you know. Um, we can call out what's really happening instead of allowing that automatic thought to just perpetuate our shame when we talk to ourselves a little bit differently. We say, like, you know, I've got to um take a different approach by saying to myself, I can handle this, I am capable. Um, this is really hard, but I know that I'll get through it. Um, I have resources, I have support, I'm not alone. Um, or I don't have to be alone. I don't deserve to be alone, right? When we kind of change the way that we talk about ourselves to ourselves, we are rewriting that pathway. We're re or rewiring our brain in that way. And hopefully eventually the new thoughts become the automatic thoughts because eventually that will wire together and fire together.

Michaela: 34:47

Yeah, absolutely. I know one of the things that we were kind of talking about, and this kind of falls into the line, like you're talking about, you know, having good self-talk, and we were talking about how we can help other people with empathy and and feeling like we can, you know, have those conversations without feeling like we are just like, you know, not getting into that space. Like we're talking about how knowing it's it's shame and being able to sit with them and like empathize with them. But sometimes it can be really hard to feel really feel that empathy when we don't really have that shared experience. And um, you had some really good thoughts about how to like communicate with people in that way, even when like we it's like, you know, we wanna, it's like she was talking about that hole. And sometimes if we are down in that hole all by ourselves and we are like asking for help, asking, you know, hey, hey, I'm feeling shame. And if, you know, how can we jump in that hole with them without, you know, when we don't feel like we're we're when we're struggling with like being able to empathize with that person.

Laura: 36:02

I think that the first thing that's most important is that it's not always about like having a say a shared lived experience. So when you're empathizing, you don't have to necessarily know what that person is going through because you've lived it. What you can do is look at that person and recognize like, I see you feeling this way, like I see you feeling this shame, I see you feeling this hard thing, and that's a really hard feeling to feel. And I'm here with you. And you know, we can get through this together. Like I often tell my clients, like, I believe it enough for the both of us. I believe that this will pass enough for the both of us. I know you don't believe that right now, and that's okay. I'm here with you in that, and I can hold some of it for you. You don't have to hold that alone. You're not alone in this room, you're not alone in this space, and I can hold some of this.

Michaela: 36:55

Yeah, I love that. Because I think sometimes, like, our our immediate response is like, oh, I'm so sorry. Like, I'm so sorry that's happening for you. And like really understanding that like difference between that's you know, really closing the door to the conversation versus opening it and saying, like, hey, I'm here with you. It's like you got that on your own.

Laura: 37:16

Mm-hmm. Yeah. And, you know, when someone's having it's it's really hard to sit with someone in pain. It's hard to tolerate other people's distress. We have to practice that. We have to recognize like this is your distress, not my distress, from the perspective of I don't have to be in distress to experience empathy for you. I can experience your distress in from a distance in in a way that is separate from you, in a way that can be helpful for you, by saying, like, I'm here. Um, it's not overwhelming me. I'm with you. We're, you know, I can be that calm, confident leader, I guess, in that moment, right? Where I'm still, I have enough to get us out both out of this hole, right? Like I'm gonna bring, I'm gonna go it. She describes going into the hole, but bringing resources to get both of you out. Right. So, like that that's kind of where that calm, confident leadership comes in, where you're basically saying, I see your pain, I'm gonna sit with you in this pain without trying to change it. I'm not gonna try to fix it because I accept you, and I accept that you come with this pain of your experience because your experience was genuinely horrible, and you deserve for someone to be here with you in that, right? And I'm not like when we come with an agenda, like, oh, you know, um, how can I be helpful or what can I do to help you? Like that can be invalidating and that can shut things down too.

Michaela: 38:49

So like or just use your coping skills.

Laura: 38:52

Yeah, which I often uh default to when I'm like not sure what to say, right? Like I might I might say something like, Okay, what kind of skills do we have in this moment? Um, but I if I say that too soon, then I'm I'm cutting off the connection. So I want to connect first. What we want to do is we want to connect first and then bring our resources and say, hey, I've got these things, like should we use them together? Like I asked um of I ask clients often, um, you know, is that something you'd like? What would you like to do right now? You know, would you like for us to work through that right now? Or would you like for us to just experience that right now? You know, do you want me to help you take this away? Or do you want to just be here with this?

Michaela: 39:44

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, it's so hard. Like, it's sometimes we don't even want to set with our own stuff, much less other people's stuff, right? I mean, I think we carry that armor of being like, I know I'm like, okay, what's the next? What's next? What's next? You know, or um, you know, always just moving through things and not really always identifying with my own emotions.

Laura: 40:11

I I think like um my my husband was in a car accident on the job and um he you know he that was like a really hard phone call to get in the middle of the night and um I my friend just the other day um I heard my mom told me that my friend there was like a car there was a pla a helicopter crash and I didn't know if my friend's husband was in the helicopter or not and I immediately was emotional and like teary-eyed and even just talking about it now makes me feel something right and I was like okay I my husband's trying to fight airplanes now and well he does fly airplanes and so like you know I was like oh man like I didn't real I don't you don't really realize how much you're carrying of those things day to day because you're just like I can't worry about it I can't control it I'm not the one making the choice to do those things what's gonna be is what's gonna be and so I don't let it cloud my thoughts or worry me it is what it is you know and um but like oh okay that like hit me and I was like oh okay I'm actually like that connected with me and I'm like I still feel stuff with that it was very vulnerable yeah and that vulnerability is important to sit with and get to know and experience because that gives you like that gives you the ability to you know communicate and connect with him and let him know like I really want you to be safe like I appreciate you I see you like I you're doing this scary thing I wonder if that's scary for you right like it can be kind of does this bring up old stuff for you too and it brings up old stuff for me like that vulnerability allows that connection in a way that if we just dismissed it like oh I'm not thinking about that well then we're missing out on a lot of the opportunity to connect and be really with the people that we love. Yeah absolutely so what does a wholehearted life actually look like so she describes so Renee Brown describes these wholehearted people right these wholehearted people who have shame resilience and they have this sense of calm and this sense of confidence and this sense of um of worthiness right that a lot of people struggled with so as she describes this wholehearted person she kind of provides these guideposts so let's talk about those like what were the guideposts of wholehearted living yeah I mean I think one of the first ones that I connected with is living oh like in gratitude and that was really something that I connected with because I was like oh yeah I definitely have done periods of time where I you know practiced more gratitude than others right and I I definitely feel like I feel better and I can connect and look for the positive things in life when I'm thinking about those things and I'm feeling grateful and writing down like okay here are the things that happened today that I'm so grateful for. Mm-hmm and gratitude practice one of the reasons why that works so well is because it helps rewire wires together fires together if we think about the things we're grateful for and if we do it every day our brain is going to go oh that must be important I'm gonna start thinking about I'm gonna start noticing things that I'm grateful for so that I can do the gratitude practice that I know now is important. So it's gonna start wiring together daily habits that present to you ideas of gratitude and things you're grateful for and positive things in life because right now most of us live with this negativity bias where we're looking for things that are threats right so we're focused on threats all the time because that's what our brain knows is important. But the gratitude practice does the opposite it focuses in on positive things. So that's one of the reasons like from a neuro perspective like why that works.

Michaela: 44:33

Yeah that's so interesting. I love that you shared that um the other thing that I really liked and that she talked about was um incorporating like the play aspect of things and like the creativity and how um shame actually is the thing that like stifles our our ability to be creative. And so that engaging in play was something that um you know was supposed to help unlock some of that creativity in us and um I I I thought it was interesting that she talked about how we're in a like a creativity crisis. And I was thinking like you know I was talking to someone like man all the movies that they're coming out with are like rewrites like they're they're remakes of old things like it like are people like people are having a hard time coming up with new concepts and I was like is it because we've just thought of everything or is it because of something else and this kind of answers some of that you know question. It's like we need to be engaging in things that make us feel like we can be seen and be vulnerable and put ourselves out there with new ideas even if they're not the idea that gets picked you know and so play helps us with that and I was I was just doing like um uh like projects at home and I I definitely feel like you get you know you get if you get lost in it if you don't want it to end if you're like you can keep going you know those are the kinds of things um that are you us as adults engaging in that play or like stuff that's you know creating creativity for us.

Laura: 46:17

Yeah when we often skip out on play like as adults right we're usually telling ourselves like oh I don't have time or that's a waste of time or that's not productive or that's selfish or that's silly. Like I often I have a hard time pretending. So I listen and read like nonfiction um I watch a lot of like nonfiction like documentaries like I have a hard time pretending I have a hard time kind of like getting into fantasy and um I think that is partly like my armor part of that is like I don't want to risk like feeling silly and feeling um exposed and vulnerable right so like that kind of goes with it. And so we have to practice play sometimes it's not just a thing that we all have we don't just innately carry this sense of play. I remember reading a social media post one time I may have mentioned it before on the podcast but um a mom had posted she's like it's not my job to play with my kids like I don't have to play with them I have to feed them I have to clothe them I have to right so it's like that pragmatic that's all her armor right and then the play part is like I don't have time for that it's not like it's not important but it is really important. And I think as adults we often diminish the importance of that because we um are so stuck in these um in these quote unquote shoulds that we've created for ourselves these these reality you know these expectations and especially in our culture today of like work really hard you know everybody's exhausted everybody's got you know doing so much and do more with less and this and that we um we've we really don't recognize the importance of play yeah but I think that one of the things that she mentioned too in like this is something that I've had conversations with some of my other friends who have kids around my age my kids' age is that we don't really enjoy playing with our kids.

Michaela: 48:18

Playing I mean it's getting easier as like they're not in like such a the like the like the baby play and like the imagination and whatever like I I I don't know what to deal with that. Right. I just like the brain doesn't work like that. I don't know why it never has but you know or but like I'll play Candyland with my kids like that's fine but but it's more than that for us as adults it's finding things that that are fun for us. So it could be like going on a hike it could be painting the mountains it could be anything it doesn't have to be just one thing um so yeah it doesn't have to be fantasy it doesn't have to be the things that make that our kids want us to do it can be our own stuff. And I love that like idea of finding out what everybody in the family's idea of play is and then trying to do those things um so that you you know where those things overlap trying to embrace more of that and so like um we love fishing and getting on the boat and fishing is like one of the things that all of us can get and get behind right and that's play.

Laura: 49:31

Yeah I love that I forgot about that. So she kind of mentioned how she did this survey from everybody in her family and made this Venn diagram of all the things that everybody liked to do. I think that's a great idea. And I think you know realizing that certain things are play that we wouldn't think of but it's basically like she described it as like fooling around like um time wasting um like I so it was my kids' birthdays this week and so we celebrated together yesterday and we played a game and I often have a hard time playing games because of that vulnerability thing. Like I really struggle with this is something that is part of my practice is I have to learn how to play. And so I played the game and it was fun and I like got excited and um but I did try to control things a little bit too much and I had to like back off and I was trying I'm like a rule follower in the games like I need to like take a take a breather and relax a little bit. But we did play some games and it was fun and I need to like take that and use and add that to my gratitude practice and say I'm grateful that I was able to practice play and I'm grateful that I was able to have that experience with my kids and have that experience with my family and our friends and um like celebrate my my success. Like I think that's important to practice too as we talk through how do we start doing this stuff regularly and how do we start benefiting ourselves with our um daily um practices is that we have to celebrate successes because that's a reward. We have to reward ourselves for doing things well.

Michaela: 51:09

Yeah I love that were there any of the other 10 guideposts that you really connected with so I really like resilience.

Laura: 51:18

It's one that comes up for me a lot in just my work right because we have to deal with really hard stuff and um like the world is not meant for the faint of heart right like um my boyfriend always says like we can't have a brittle spirit like we have to we can't get broken easily we have to be able to come back from really hard things and I I like the way that she talked about people who overprepare for negative things to happen. Basically we like lower our baseline and we be and we kind of feel crappy all the time. So it's like crappy crappy crappy crappy crappy just in case something crappy happens so that I don't feel like extra crappy right but it's okay then we're just feeling bad all the time and that's not you know that's not a good trade off. So like raising our baseline a little bit at a time like giving ourselves the freedom to play to experience some um some joy and the freedom to let our guard down some of the time in low stakes situations can help build resilience. We um we need to know that no matter what happens we're going to be able to move forward and we're going to be able to overcome the feeling the emotional toll that that's going to take on us right we're going to be able to manage our emotions and we're going to be able to get through them that resilience is incredibly important and so we have to do take little risks at a time you know be successful recognize the success and that can build resilience yeah I love that I mean I think that it is definitely something that some people have an easier time with you know some people you know we we think of like you know we are all resilient and we all have the capacity to be resilient but sometimes life experiences maybe some genetic factors I don't know they they make it harder for us and I think I think that a lot of it comes surrounds that mindset and you know if we tend to be always waiting for the other shoe to drop we're gonna have a harder time bouncing back you know because we're all our nervous systems are working really hard all the time.

Michaela: 53:57

You know so I think that like it it it can take some work for some some people more than others and so that's why we can't compare ourselves to what other people are going through because they we have different life experiences we have different learn learned experiences and as such that we have a different way of viewing the world and that's going to impact our ability to bounce back. And I like that you said having these small successes because I really think that that's the huge key there is that you need to have success to be able to believe that success success is possible. I agree with that.

Laura: 54:33

And I think that is a great place to end it. I think we could talk about this for another like five hours but hopefully we got some good stuff out there and I know we loved this book so I'm gonna link to it in the show notes and we'll make sure that um everybody can access it and um and read for themselves or listen for themselves and yeah and um and get some of these great tips. But thank you so much for this conversation and thank you so much for listening to why am I like this if you like our show please leave us a link rating and review on your favorite podcast platform follow the show and share it with your friends. This episode was written and produced by me Laura Wood and Michaela Beaver our theme song is Making ends Meet by Thick as Thieves and special thanks to Benavieri Counseling, Core Self, and Active Healing Psychatric Services for sponsoring our show. h