Why Am I Struggling with Addiction?!

We map addiction across three lenses—brain changes, attachment trauma, and choice—and show how they fit together without shame. Practical tools, meds, and nervous system skills make healing doable, from habit loops to co-regulation to TMS.

• defining addiction as impaired control despite harm
• substance and process addictions sharing brain mechanics
• dopamine spikes, downregulation and anhedonia
• prefrontal cortex as brakes and how it weakens
• attachment wounds and substitute relationships
• co‑regulation, safety cues and nervous system repair
• the “beast” voice vs agency without shame
• habit loops, delay windows and urge surfing
• Pavlovian reversal and neural pruning
• medications, TMS, NAC and GLP‑1 research
• building adult secure attachment and daily practices
• reframing recovery as reconnection and consistency

If you like our show, please leave us a rating and review on your favorite podcast platform. Follow the show and share it with friends.

Here are the links to the books we referenced in this episode: 

Rational Recovery: https://www.amazon.com/Rational-Recovery-Cure-Substance-Addiction/dp/0671528580

Addiction, Attachment, Trauma, and Recovery: https://www.amazon.com/Addiction-Attachment-Trauma-Recovery-Interpersonal/dp/0393713172

Laura's Free Course on Emotional Development and Regulation:
https://benavieri.com/neuroception-sign-up/

This show is sponsored by:

Core Self

www.coreself.org

Benavieri Counseling & Coaching
www.benavieri.com

Active Healing Psychiatric Services
www.activehealingpsych.com

Chapters

• 0:00 Meet The Hosts And Mission
• 0:48 Defining Addiction And Harm
• 4:19 Substance Vs Process Addictions
• 6:17 Tools Help, Choice Still Matters
• 6:51 The Dopamine Flood And Downregulation
• 9:15 Prefrontal Cortex And Lost Brakes
• 10:00 Three Major Theories Of Addiction
• 12:10 Attachment Trauma And Substitute Relationships
• 14:05 Co‑Regulation And Nervous System Safety
• 16:10 Choice Models And The “Beast” Voice
• 19:09 Habit Loops And Rewiring
• 22:15 Anhedonia And Healing Timelines
• 25:08 Adult Attachment And Self‑Regulation
• 28:18 Shame, Meaning, And Agency
• 31:40 Pavlov, Conditioning, And Reversal
• 35:29 Practical Skills: Delay, Observe, Contain
• 38:46 Rethinking “I Need A Drink”
• 41:06 Relapse Risk And Neural Pruning
• 44:48 Medications, TMS, And New Research
• 48:29 Recovery As Reconnection And Support
• 49:51 Closing And Listener Invitation

Transcript

Laura: 0:02

Hello and welcome to Why Am I Like This, the podcast that didn't give enough hugs as a child. I'm Laura Wood and I'm a trauma therapist.

Michaela: 0:11

And I'm Michaela Beaver, I'm a psychiatric nurse practitioner. So Michaela, why are we doing this podcast? I'm so glad you asked. We want to help you understand yourself a bit better. How the things you learned about yourself and the world in childhood are still affecting you today. We want to figure out why are we like this? Like, why am I so jumpy? Why am I so anxious? Why do I take everything personally? Why are my thoughts so negative? Why do I feel like I have to fix everything all the time?

Laura: 0:47

Yes. And today we are talking about addiction. Why are we addicted? We are going to try to answer the following question. What are some theories of addiction? Like what is it? Um, how do all of these theories of addiction tie together? And what are some steps we can take towards recovery? So I think we get started by defining addiction. What is addiction?

Michaela: 1:15

Great question. And I think that it's basically coming down to the repeated use of some kind of substance, whether it's food or alcohol or drugs or sex or whatever. And it's having this urge and desire to stop using and this inability to do so even though we're causing harm to our body.

Laura: 1:48

Yeah, I think that's an important part. Like the feeling of being inabil in it unable to stop, even though it's causing us harm. And that could be financial harm, that could be physical harm, um, that could be mental, our family, right? Like how many different things are impacted by addiction? Like there's so many things in your life that can kind of go off the rails.

Michaela: 2:13

Yeah. So is it not addiction then if we don't see how it's harming us?

Laura: 2:20

I don't think we have to see how it's harming us. I think the harm itself classifies it as addiction. Like a lot of people think like, oh, I'm not addicted, right? But that might not be true if they still meet that classification and that criteria, right? So with any um with any diagnosable disorder in the DSM, the diagnostic and statistical manual for mental disorders, it has to have clinically significant distress, right? And that clinical dis clinically significant distress is often is that kind of that harm in an addiction um cycle. So, you know, we wouldn't necessarily need the insight to have that be true, but we probably need the insight in order to do anything about it. Yeah, that's fair.

Michaela: 3:11

I know I see, you know, I've heard a fair number of people who don't necessarily see that it's harming their lives, but I if we if we would, if we were to ask their family or friends or significant others or whatever, or their job, maybe even, they might, they might say otherwise, you know, and and so I I agree. I think that you know, there's other factors that might be impacting them in not being able to see what's really going on, like the desire to continue to use, right? The benefit that they the perceived benefit that they get from using that substance.

Laura: 3:51

And you know, there's not a huge, there's a difference between a substance addiction and a process addiction. So the difference though is just in definition, it's not really different in our in the mechanics of what's happening in our brain and body. So, like a substance addiction is what it sounds like. It's a you know, food, um, drugs, um, alcohol, substances, something like that. Now, caffeine, nicotine, etc. A process addiction is a behavioral addiction. So we often think of gambling. That kind of gets lumped in, sex gets lumped in. But what we don't often really classify as a process addiction, which I think we need to think more about, is like gaming, right? For kids. Like people kind of roll their eyes like when we think of a gaming addiction. Um, but what about social media? Exactly, or like the numbingness of like scrolling on your phone or playing games on your phone and like blocking out life. And it that causes harm to our relationships, to it can cause harm to our work. I was thinking about this as I was reading through the material to prepare for this episode. And there's some numbing behaviors that I use that I'm like, hmm, maybe I should like watch this more closely of like just getting on my phone and playing games and listening to books or podcasts or whatever. And then I make the excuse, well, I'm listening to a book, I'm working. So I can like hear myself justifying my behavior. And so those are things to think about. Are we addicted to a process like um vegging out with the TV or um, you know, being on our phones too much? That's something that we can be addicted to too.

Michaela: 5:38

Yeah, well, totally. There are a number of different things that my patients will come to me and say, Oh, I got this thing and it's a block and I put it on my fridge, and uh it helps me like stop using my apps and you know, but like they have to actually set it up to make it so that it actually works, or they have to actually go to the fridge to put the do the block, and then you know, then it will block the apps from being available, or they set, you know, things, but they can override them. You know, there's different settings so that you stop using your phone at 10 p.m. so that you could go to sleep at night, but you have to actually have the willpower not to just override those things.

Laura: 6:17

Right. Those are helpful tools, but similarly to um like the medications that, and we'll talk more about this later, but the medications that make it not pleasurable for us to drink alcohol anymore, right? There's but we have to take that medication. We might be like, no, I really want to have drinks this weekend, so I'm not gonna take it, you know. We have to choose to use the tools in place, and that can be hard to do, as we'll get into when we start talking about like the actual brain neuroscience behind addiction.

Michaela: 6:51

Yeah, absolutely. I love that you brought that up. I think that the the neuroscience behind addiction is very interesting, you know. Um, and I think that, you know, one of the books that we were looking at, you know, kind of doesn't take some of that neuroscience neuroscience into perspective. And that's understanding that, you know, what's happening in the brain when we choose to engage in something that's rewarding is that the that the brain gets flooded with dopamine. And using something like a substance, you know, our brain is getting flooded with dopamine at like 10 times the rate of what we would normally get from a natural source, right? Just hanging out with friends or and you know, enjoying social connection or whatever. You know, we're using that substance, we're we're getting a lot more dopamine into that part of our brain, the um the nucleus accumbents, and that is you know creating um this really big spike in dopamine. And so then that starts to affect the receptors in the brain. And those receptors in the brain downregulate. They're like, whoa, this is a lot, and so they become less sensitive to dopamine. And I think that we kind of see this, you know, in when when people are using medications even normally, right? We get a little bit less sensitive to those things over time because our brain gets used to that thing being there. And so then what happens after, you know, being using that substance for a period of time is that you know, that that chronic down regulation and actually ultimately starts to impact our prefrontal cortex. And so that part of our brains that's supposed to be the brakes starts to say starts to stop saying no. It starts to prioritize short-term benefit over the the long-term health benefits of abstaining, right? And so it stops working and stops, you know, preventing it, those brakes get weak, I guess, is a bit of it, right? And so they're not they're not effective at stopping us from saying this isn't a good idea right now.

Laura: 9:15

Yeah, our prefrontal cortex is like the brakes, it's the thing that controls our impulses, it's the thing that controls our behavior and makes us more human, like gives us more power, gives us more control, gives us more choice. But if that prefrontal cortex is, you know, not really working quite as well, it's not online, or it's not um producing the results that we normally would get, then it makes it a lot harder to put those brakes on and decide, make a good choice, right? Make a good conscious choice. Like I think that's a really important aspect of the theories of addiction. Like there's several different people, like there's tons of theories of addictions, right? Like the main three are, you know, that addiction is a disease and um in the brain, and it is genetically, you know, predispositioned and has like those genetic and epigenetic components to it and kind of like influences the way that our brain, there's like some neuroscience there. And then there's addiction as like a response to attachment trauma, right? So that's another theory that we can that we'll talk a little bit about. And then there's the theory of that it's just a decision, like it's a character flaw, like you know, like you're just you need to just choose to stop. And I think there's good things in all of these, right? But they don't all necessarily cover the entire picture. So, like what you're saying is like the this is what's happening once you're using the substance. But then I think if we back up a little bit and go into, okay, let's talk about attachment trauma, then it's like, why are we using it in the first place? Why are we seeking that out? Like, what are we doing to like what are we trying to accomplish within ourselves? And the theory that addiction is a response to trauma is that it's a symptom, right? The addiction is a symptom of the um of the trauma response in our bodies because we need a way to self-soothe, especially when we're young. And I hear trauma survivors starting using substances at like 10, 11 years old. And that's a time when we're learning how to self-soothe in a safe, co-regulating environment. Co-regulation is the process that happens as we're children and babies, where our parents or caregivers, right, our attachment figures, they help regulate our nervous system with their nervous system. So our energy kind of um connects and comes together, our heartbeats sync up, our, you know, our breathing sinks up, like all that stuff happens in our nervous system as a way to communicate safety and connection. But for somebody who's never experienced that safety, they're using a substance to self-soothe, and it really is like what they call a substitute relationship.

Michaela: 12:20

Yeah.

Laura: 12:20

And so your relationship becomes with the substance instead of with your caregiver.

Michaela: 12:25

Yeah. And if you don't have a caregiver to help co-regulate, I bet it's really hard to figure out what how to cope, right? But I love that you brought up co-regulation. I think it's so interesting. So yesterday I was hanging out with my kids and um they were swimming in the hot tub. And they're not allowed to jump in the hot tub, you know, fears of cracks and you know, damage and things like that. So they know that that's not something you're supposed to do. So my little one jumps in and then my older one decides like he wants to do it too. And I was like, I said no. And he got dysregulated because it wasn't fair that his brother got to do it and he didn't, right? So then we started to have a meltdown. And those meltdowns can go one of two ways, right? If I'm harsh, it will get worse. And if I stay regulated, it goes a totally different direction. So we walked inside and I gave him a big hug and I said, You're gonna get five minutes of timeout, and then you can go back into the pool. I don't want to go. You give me a hundred minutes, right? I want a hundred minutes, I want five hundred minutes. And I said, Well, if you want 500 minutes, that can be your choice. I'm gonna set the timer for five minutes and you know, let's get a snack. And he was regulated within 30 seconds of that, you know, just me remaining calm and saying, Hey, I love you and I got you. And he was able to get regulated, go have a snack, and go hop back in the hot tub and play for another hour, you know, and it was fine. But had I followed, sometimes we have this instinct to push the kids away because it's their distress is intolerable to us. We're humans with nervous systems, and so that could go a different way if I had acted in a different way. So I love that, I love the idea of co-regulation because it's so important.

Laura: 14:20

Yeah, and if you are a person, a child growing up with a violent caregiver or an absent caregiver or a scary, inconsistent caregiver, you don't feel safe and connected. And so you need to find that feeling of safety and connection. I hear from um prior from like recovering um substance users who say that the feeling of doing a drug is like a warm hug, right? Those opiate receptors in our brain, like those natural androgynous opioids kind of come into play when we're attached and when we're bonded. But when we're not, and we don't have those natural um chemical reactions that we would create with a co-regulation and with a bonded caregiver, then we seek that out somewhere else. And so we use that as a way to regulate and soothe our ourself. Um, because like people say that like using heroin or fentanyl, it's literally like it washes over you like a warm hug. That's how they describe it.

Michaela: 15:33

Yeah, that's so interesting. Well, and I think that, you know, they may not even be seeking this out because they're they know that that this is gonna be how that feels, right? They're just seeking out and trying to, you know, connect with anybody. And maybe that person that they connected with was someone who also, you know, has trauma and then gets it, you know, gets um, you know, is just trying to fit in or whatever, right? So it may not be, they may not even know that that's what they're looking for or whatever, but then they realize once they start using that this creates something in them or makes them feel a way that they've never been able to feel independent of that substance, I think, you know?

Laura: 16:21

Yeah, and that's where it creates that substitute relationship. So now my relationship is with the substance. That substance is my regulator and it's helping me feel safe, it's helping me feel calm, it's helping me feel like a feeling that I've never really been able to help or to feel before. And so when we talk about what does it look like to recover, we have to think about trust and safety and secure attachment. And those things I think get missed when we go into some of the other theories, like the choice theory, right? So another, the the kind of third, the big three, the third theory is that addiction is a choice that you can make and it derives between the conflict of between an addicted voice, which they call in the book by Jack Trimpe Rational Recovery, which is a sort of recovery avenue. They have like self-help, they have books and things like that, kind of in contrast to the 12-step programs. But in rational recovery, they refer to the addictive voice as the beast. And so the beast is in competition or conflict with your true self. And your true self is that part, your prefrontal cortex, right? That prefrontal cortex is your true self. That's what makes you human, that's what makes you you. And the beast comes from a part of your brain with the within the limbic system, which is like your survival center. So from the survival center, the this beast is saying, you need to drink alcohol, you need to go use, you need to go do this. And basically, we have to then choose to override that by being our true self. And when we are operating from our true self, we can choose. We can say, Oh, this isn't me. This urge to use isn't me. This is the voice, this is the beast, and I'm stronger than the beast, I'm better than the beast. And there's something to that. Like I like that as like a like a conceptual theory of recovery, but I find it missing the important aspects of the reason why we're using in the first place. Like what kind of pleasure or relief are we seeking and why? Because I think more than just knowing that we have the power to stop, we have to know what problem are we solving with this addiction so that we can learn how to regulate, right? Because I think it's more um, you know, I subscribe more to the addiction as attachment trauma. The Oliver J. Morgan and Luis Cosalino have um a book about addiction, attachment, trauma, and recovery. And their theory really is that it's all of these things. It's not just one or the other, right? It's not just a choice, it's not just attachment trauma, and it's not just a brain disease, right? Like it's everything together. And so we have to really think about that when we think about recovery.

Michaela: 19:22

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I've always conceptualized it as it does, like, you know, whatever the thing that led you there, that's important. But also there are changes in the brain that are happening after you use that take that change our ability. So when we're looking at this just, you know, rational recovery view, it's like, yes, there's a beast, yes, there's that addicted voice in our brain that's saying, Hey, I want this, I want this, and this urge. You know, if you can just watch it and recognize it, that urge generally will. Pass at that moment, right? Triggered something, a smell, a sound, something wreck makes you get into that part of your network of like, you know, oh, I should use something, like drink, whatever. And then, you know, but it so it's I I definitely think that that's a thing, but just being able to go, okay, I'm just gonna not use, you know, that that doesn't totally fit for me, right? Like using that part of our brain, like we talked about before, it's desensitized. It it cares more about the present moment than it does your long-term well-being. And so, you know, I think and I I do agree though with the fact that, you know, there maybe there is some level of perceived helplessness that can happen when you think, well, this is just an addiction, this is just how my brain's gonna be. I have no power over it, and we, I'm just I'm gonna continue to drink, right? And so as long as you have that mentality, then yes, that's gonna be problematic. And so I do kind of agree with that part of it.

Laura: 21:06

Yeah, I think so too. And that's why I think all these series working together make so much sense because yes, we want to make sure that people who are suffering from addiction understand that they can build back their conscious awareness and agency, right? Like they can take that power back. And we can do that by rewiring some of those networks that have become wired together from the addiction, addicted use, right? So, like what you're saying about the chemical imbalance now that we have, the um inability to really process dopamine in a way that would be um typical or normal in our brain, we have to undo that damage. And part of undoing that damage is doing the work to rewire uh through new experiences and give it time. And so I think you know, the habit loop, the habit formation, the learning theory like is really important here, like that um you are able to reverse some of the problems that have been created by doing the same thing over and over. So, like with with a habit loop, you've got the stimulus, the response, the reward, right? So you have the stimulus, the trigger, the response, I'm gonna use, and then the reward is the dopamine. So we have to create a new system. We have to create a new, like when we have the stimulus, we need to do something different. And if that means we put time in between use and trigger, right? So sometimes um we use a time box and we say, okay, you know what? I'm gonna be triggered. If I'm triggered, I won't use for another hour. And then I'll like I'm gonna wait an hour, and then if after an hour I still want to use, I can use, right? But I'm gonna put time in between. That actually interrupts this habit loop, right? So you have a different action, and then the reward sometimes could feel could be the reward of accomplishment. But we have to know that in the beginning of this process, our dopamine receptors are still damaged. They're not going to give us that same level of dopamine response that we're looking for. And we have to be prepared for that. It's not just something that you can undo quickly.

Michaela: 23:25

Right. Well, I think one of the things that you think about when there is long-term use or I mean just use in general, I guess I should say. But what happens is the longer time, the longer time you've used, the more that your dopamine reward system is broken. So you, you know, anhedonia is like the key thing that is problematic in people who have substance use because you, you know, because of the dopamine reward system being hijacked, you know, your dopamine starts at a baseline. And you use it spikes and then it goes down below baseline, and then it spikes and goes down and spikes. So now you're using to try to get back to baseline. You and so even just doing normal daily activities, being with people, all of those things, they're not giving you the joy that they you that they should because your dopamine reward system is so broken that you're not even at baseline, you're so far below baseline that you're just using substances to even feel anything at all at that point. But the good thing is, is like you said, it does heal. And so our brain can return back to baseline. And when they've done studies looking at, I know marijuana for one, they've done studies looking at it, and you know, the the reward pathway can be healed, and it takes about four weeks to start seeing that balance return to that normal. Um, if you can abstain for that four-week amount of time, we can see some balance returning and people's, you know, um symptoms reducing. Um and that, you know, kind of shows that that dopamine reward system can improve over time.

Laura: 25:06

Mm-hmm. Yeah. And I love that we can think about this system as healable, right? Because I think a lot of the time when people have an addiction, they think like this is going to be a lifelong battle. And maybe it will be a lifelong sort of thought or aspect, but battle doesn't have to be true, right? It can get easier. It can, you can get to a point where you don't have to work as hard to feel okay. And it can get to a point where you have a trigger and you might be like, oh, yeah, but I don't do that anymore. And that can be a normal thing. Um, so it's a lifelong choice, not necessarily a lifelong battle. I think, I think that's important to remember that like it it does over time, you can heal that stuff. And with the trauma part too, you can heal a dysregulated nervous system. So, for example, when we look at the model of addiction focused on attachment and trauma, we can think about our response to or our response of using, like that habit of using, is a is in order to soothe our nervous system, in order to find secure attachment, in order to find safety and connection. Um, and so when we need that safety and connection, we can find it in other places and through therapy or through work, you know, there's a thousand different things other than therapy that can be helpful too. But you can learn how to regulate your nervous system and soothe yourself, especially if you're an adult. So, like in kids, this might be a little bit more complex, but when we think about an adult who's using a substance to self-soothe, they can learn that as an adult, they don't need that same co-regulation that they used to need as infants and children. So, like they can be their own stable attachment, they can be their own secure attachment system because uh the attachment system is a operates on a continuum. It starts out as child, a child attachment system is based on a singular caregiver, one person who keeps you alive and helps you regulate. That's just one person. And then when you get into kind of adolescence, your attachment system starts to seek out other people. And so it becomes more about your community and becomes more about your social group. That kind of becomes your attachment system, or that kind of um is what your attachment system is focused on. And then as you get into adulthood, you start to be able to attach to yourself and your individual um adult self becomes that secure base. So you kind of go from uh from from singular other to community network and social group to yourself. And that's the the development that we can we can do even in adulthood, we can achieve that development and and recover from those attachment wounds.

Michaela: 28:10

Yeah, I love that. I think it's interesting that you say that because from a neurobiology perspective, the way that the brain um is developing, it initially is you know really right-brained. And the the right brain is part the part of it that's like really helping that infant stay connected with the parent, that's you know, giving them connection, giving them food. They're they're they they they rely really heavily on that one person, right? As you said. And then I think as the brain continues to develop, we start to get more connection between the right and left side of the brain. And if we're getting normal attachment, if we're getting healthy attachment in that time, then that develops really well. But with if we're not getting it, that that's part of the reason why some of that developmental trauma is so important, is because that attachment is key for the full development and connection of the brain. And so, you know, it kind of fits as the trajectory goes. They're looking and seeking out other attachment figures in that time because that's what the brain is trying to do as it's developing in adolescence, and then hopefully is fully formed by the time you're an adult, right?

Laura: 29:24

Well, right. And the cortex, the prefrontal cortex and the neocortex is actually developed effectively by that attachment. And that remember in the beginning, we talked about the prefrontal cortex is like the brakes. And so if that doesn't develop properly when you are a child based on like your attachment history, then to say, oh, your prefrontal cortex is strong enough to be the brakes already, like I don't think that's fair, right? Like I don't think that is necessarily accurate when you've had disruption in the development of your cortical functioning.

Michaela: 29:57

Yeah, absolutely. I agree a hundred percent. I also think that, you know, what we would I would be remiss if I didn't mention um the fact, like the process of shame in this, you know, and the play and that fact that like, you know, we if we interpret the meaning that we have this urge or the meaning that, you know, we're struggling with this thing, then I'm weak or I'm broken, or you know, going down those shame spirals, you know, we're effectively not allowing ourselves to heal because we need to quiet the limbic system by saying, like, I'm I can do this, and I and and gaining that emotional regulation and grounding skills and self-ability to self-soothe is really important in that process.

Laura: 30:54

I totally agree with that. I think that's really important. When we have an addiction, we often carry there's so much shame and guilt that is built into um a person's psyche who's been using drugs too, or alcohol or substances or processes to really escape from the dysregulation that they're feeling. They have so much shame and guilt. And that shame and guilt is really just going to push them further down into addiction. It doesn't help us. It's not, those are not helpful feelings. Like productive guilt is one thing when, like, if I made a mistake and I apologize and I'm accountable, that's what that's productive guilt. Shame is not productive in any way, it just serves to harm.

Michaela: 31:41

Right. Well, I think it just increases that connection of the dysregulation and what wires together, fires together. So if we put ourselves back in that place where we're feeling that way, we're gonna be more likely to take the breaks offline. And therefore, then we have a the ability to say, like, well, that's probably not in my best interest.

Laura: 32:05

Mm-hmm. Absolutely. So, like, all of these theories kind of work together in that, you know, you've got the, let's say it starts with the attachment wound, and that attachment wound impacts your brain development. And then you've got the brain development model that's saying, like, hey, this is uh regulating your dopamine and this is you know doing this thing for you. And then you've got the lack of choice, and then you've got the difficult, you know, um, response, you the inability to respond properly from your prefrontal cortex, and that sort of feels like it takes away your agency, and so rebuilding that conscious awareness of your agency kind of fits with that choice model, right? So they all tie together. This is like a um a holistic look at what is addiction and why are we addicted and why are we stuck in this cycle. Yeah, I love that. So when we know what wires together, fires together, the more I do a thing, the more automatic it will become. That's true for starting the addiction, but it's also true for reversing the addiction, right? So we talk about we often talk about classical conditioning in therapy and like Pavlov's dogs. So most of us learned about Pavlov's dogs in like our psych class in high school or whatever or college. But when we learned about Pavlov's dogs, we just learned that they created like the bell salvation salvation, and you know, the reward is the food or whatever, right? So you've got the loop. But what we forget is that Pavlov actually took the dogs back from that process and reversed it and made it so that with the bell did not come to salvation, salvation. So, like we forget about the reversal of this process that it's possible to rewire. And so when we change the process, when we insert something else into the process and say, you know, stimulus response, the different response creates a different pathway. And re-wire and rewriting your pathway means you have to do it over and over and over and over and over. And the more often you do something, your brain makes it automatic because our brain is like the most complex functioning organism on the planet, and it's always doing a ton of stuff, and so it really tries to automate tasks that we don't have to so that we don't have to, it lowers our cognitive overhead. Because if we had to be consciously aware of every single thing that we were doing all the time, like we would all just die. Like you can't, it can't be done.

Michaela: 34:46

Everything would be overwhelming. We wouldn't be we wouldn't be successful at anything because we'd be so worried about okay, what do I do first? How do I brush my teeth? Uh I don't know how to start, you know, like you know, those simple things that you just kind of do, and you're like, wait, did I even do that? How did I get to work? Right? Like it's just that's what the brain does. It automates things so that it takes away that that load.

Laura: 35:12

Mm-hmm. And so when we don't act on urge and respond differently, we can weaken that circuit and try and start a new circuitry. Like, I think that's really important. But it's like, okay, how do we do that? You know, how do we actually take steps towards recovery? I think recognition is really important. So, first, like what we're talking about, noticing like what could possibly, what am I escaping from? What am I um responding to? Like, what survival need am I meeting? Is it just the survival need of attachment? Is it the survival need of hunger if it's food? Is it the survival need of um of you know safety, right? Like what am I, what am I getting out of this? So recognizing that I think is really important. And then I like what you said about like taking the shame out, meaning it's not, it doesn't mean anything. So if I detach from the urge, I'm saying to myself, this is just an urge that I have based on a habit loop. It's not me, right? It's not my personality, it's not myself. It's not, it doesn't mean anything about me, it doesn't say anything about me. It's just a habit firing, a habit loop firing in my brain. It's just a thing. What's happening? It's not me. Observe, um, observe ourselves, like picturing. I have these little, like in my office, I have these little tiny brains. Um, they're like squeezy balls or whatever, but they're in the shape of brains. So like I'll get a little brain out and I'll be like, okay, this is the thing that's saying to do the what you don't want to do. This is the thing that's saying to do the, to use drugs or use alcohol or or follow a compulsion. So look at that thing. Just look at it, observe it, listen to it, just say it says what it says, like notice it, and then you don't have to actually respond to it and act on it though. Yeah, I love that.

Michaela: 37:07

I think that this has so much practical application for a lot of things in life and not just necessarily substance use. I mean, I think about, you know, we're talking it, it feels like we're talking about parts of self almost too, you know. Like there's a part of me that wants to go do this thing, and there's a part of me that wants to go do that thing, right? Maybe I want to eat healthy and lose weight, but I want pizza, you know? Yeah, pizza does not get me there. So I could choose to eat pizza, but I can also listen to that urge and say, yes, I want that, but I don't need it. You know, I'm not gonna die if I don't eat pizza. I can choose to eat something different that's a little bit better for me, you know? And so I feel like these things can play a role in a lot of areas of our life because even though we're just really focusing on substance use or like, you know, addiction processes, I think it has a lot to do with a lot of different areas in our life.

Laura: 38:04

I totally agree with that. And I think um specifically, compulsions based on like OCD can really be um like OCD and anxiety disorders, like with the compulsions and intrusive thoughts and things like that. Like this could really apply there too when it comes down to like removing the meaning. Like it doesn't say anything about me, it doesn't mean anything, it's just a thought, it's just a brain firing, it's just a glitch, it's just whatever to recognize that we don't, I don't have to do the thing that it wants me to do. I can be safe without that. Like you said, I'm not gonna die if I don't do this thing. And I can be uncomfortable. I like to the idea of having like a mantra. I got this from Brene Brown. Like, I I choose to be uncomfortable in this moment. Like I can be uncomfortable right now, and that's okay, and it will pass. Yeah. I think that's important.

Michaela: 38:58

I also like the idea of putting it in the container.

Laura: 39:01

Yes, I love a container. Containers are one of my favorite things because they give us space that we can distance ourselves from the way that we feel. So I also this is true about the sand tray and uh technique in therapy too. Putting externalizing is what they call it, externalizing our feelings and thoughts, but kind of imagining them outside of ourselves and in a container instead is really, really helpful. Or we can even kind of have the awareness of the container being on the inside, but it's removed from like our physiological response. Like we can separate ourselves from it and recognize that it's not me, it's just the feeling that I'm having, and I can set that aside for right now.

Michaela: 39:46

Yeah, absolutely. I think too, like just recognizing that just because I think like our safety wiring is so strong, and it's really just you know, it hasn't developed enough. In the world that we live in right now. And so, like all of these things are saying, like, hey, it's not safe, but I don't feel good. But it's like anxiety is normal. Anxiety tells us information. It's telling us, hey, pay attention to that. And when we respond to the, hey, pay attention to that, in like a, oh my gosh, I shouldn't feel this way. I feel uncomfortable. This isn't good. Something bad's gonna happen, right? And we let that say, like, oh, I'm in danger, then that just further perpetuates that connection. I need to get rid of this feeling by going and using a substance. I need to get rid of this feeling. It's not right to feel this way. What can I do? How can I get rid of it? And it's like, well, it's not actually dangerous. And we can talk ourselves out of it and use our safety behavior. We can use um different ways to regulate our nervous system so that we don't feel like we have to go use that substance to calm ourselves down. Oh, I had a hard day and I'm gonna just go have a drink. Okay, but do I actually need a drink? Or maybe I could change that and rewire that and say, like, well, I could have a drink, but maybe I don't need to use it so that it's making me calm down, right? And if we if we're choosing to use it so that we can have, you know, hang out or whatever, maybe that's one thing. But if we're using it and we're thinking, oh, I just I need to relax, we need to step back from that thought and say, like, well, that's not why I want to use this thing, right? And if we can pay attention to that.

Laura: 41:33

Yeah, I think when we like you said, we're if we don't reinforce that circuit, we don't, if we don't go out and replace that feeling with something else, we're not reinforcing the circuit. It's in it's a part of the human experience to feel emotions. Negative emotions are part of the human experience. It's okay to have a negative emotion. Negative emotions don't say anything about us, they're not good or bad, they just are. And so we can experience that, notice it, move through it, move past it so that it doesn't get stuck in our system and continue to take up our energy. If we are allowing it to move through us, then it doesn't occupy us for so long. It actually goes by a lot faster. And with time and practice, and you know, you even shared with us that uh our dopamine receptors can start recovering in like four weeks. That's not that long. That's a real relatively short amount of time for us to start making those changes and uh you know, rewiring our brain every time we make a different choice.

Michaela: 42:37

Yeah, I love that. And I think that like, you know, one of the things, you know, is that we negotiate with ourselves sometimes. Like, um, well, it's been four weeks, uh, my dopamine's regulated. Maybe I can use, maybe I can have some again, maybe I can drink again, maybe I can smoke that cigarette again. And, you know, I one of the things that I liked about the what Trimpy said was that like maybe we just can't, right? Maybe we're not that person that can casually use a substance because we've already kind of well, you know, even though it's reversible, maybe we still have that propensity to return back to that quickly, you know? And so like, um, it's kind of like I don't know, maybe this is totally wrong, but it's it's like you know, it's ingrained in our brain and it's like uh familiar, right? And that can become a pattern. Sometimes it doesn't happen, but you know, if you're noticing that you're having to get out of this and unstuck over and over again, you're probably not that person that can keep using and you know, when we stop using that circuit, it doesn't necessarily go away, it simply stops firing.

Laura: 43:57

So if we reactivate it, it can be built back pretty easily. So our brain goes through what's a process called pruning, where it kind of gets rid of stuff that we don't use. So yes, the circuit will become weaker, but it's like riding a bike. Like if you get back on there, it's you're gonna remember. Your brain is going to remember what that was like and it's gonna try to rebuild it, and it's gonna be fast, it's gonna be easy to rebuild, and it's going to be able to turn that back on because it thinks that it's supposed to. Your brain is doing what it's supposed to do. This is a healthy brain mechanism. And so we want to respect our brain and trust ourselves and know that when we have this propensity, we should respect ourselves a little bit differently and make a different choice.

Michaela: 44:47

Yeah. Oh, I also should say though, there are, you know, several different medications that can be really helpful when you're struggling with, you know, problems of addiction. So um, you know, one of the one of the things that's really new is that kratom that is out there. You can buy it at any dispensary, gas station, whatever. And people start using it thinking it's gonna make them feel better. But unfortunately, it connects to the opiate receptors and acts similar to what an opiate would. And people are really struggling with um major withdrawal symptoms coming off of things, and it's just a simple thing that you could buy at the gas station, seems harmless, think it's promoting itself by giving you energy or decreasing anxiety or lose focus and things like that. And it can be really challenging to come off of something like that, just something that seems so simple. It's at the gas station, right? Yeah, um, but there are there are many drugs out there that are very, or medications, I should say, medications that are very helpful at reducing the cravings and withdrawals associated with addiction, depending on the drug, right? Um, and so, you know, that's definitely something that like don't feel ashamed that they're there for help, like to support you. You don't have to be on them for forever. But what if you got reward, you know, got that circuitry reward system kind of recalibrated and were able to come off of it without feeling like garbage? Um, so there's lots of people out there that can support you, psychiatrists, psychiatric nurse practitioners that can prescribe those medications just to support you so that you can get through this. You don't have to do it on your own. Um, there's also some supplements. Nacetylcysteine was looked at for teens and used, and um, the teens that used N-acetylcysteine um had lower rates of marijuana in their system, if none, right? And so there are some supplements out there that can be supportive. And then I was um just at a conference and they talked about how um, you know, TMS is gonna be something to look to potentially. It is FDA cleared for um the use of smoking cessation. Um, and so though your insurance company may not cover it, you know, if you um invest in yourself, you can have that re money recouped in no time at all. You know, cigarettes are not cheap. So, you know, investing in yourself and and thinking about doing using TMS. I'm hopeful that there will be more coming out about TMS um helping with the support of reducing um other substances in in addition to. And then they're also looking at GLPs and how GLPs can actually help improve that that reward system and also reduce the cravings of substances potentially. So that's not like an FDA cleared thing, but they are looking at how that might be useful. So that I thought that was really interesting.

Laura: 47:53

That is interesting. I did read a study on that where the GLP ones they reduce the cravings and they operate in that same way that um like with food, they're what they're doing is they're reducing the food craving, but with substances, they operate in a similar way. So they reduce sub cravings for alcohol and cravings for other things. So there's some research going on right now, which is really exciting. Yeah. And you know, it's there's we talked about these theories. There's so many theories of addiction, and um, it's a comprehensive, complicated problem. And so we need a comprehensive, complicated solution sometimes. Like we need more than one thing. It's not just, oh, I can do this on my own. It's about getting support and getting recovery is reconnecting to yourself, safe others, reconnecting to your mind, reconnecting to your true self. And it's about regulation, right? Regulation and relationship and like learning how to regulate yourself versus, you know, using that substance to regulate. I think it's important that we remember that help is out there and it's okay to ask for help because it's hard. It's hard to ask for help when we feel a lot of shame. That shame kind of keeps us from telling, keeps us from going out and asking for help. And we need to, we need to really um push back against that shame and do the work and and get help. And so I think I think that's really important.

Michaela: 49:23

Yeah, I agree. I think it is hard because I think that, you know, people think that they're weak or that they can't believe that they got in this position. And how's this gonna affect my career? What if people know? And I think that, you know, we can't think like that because that those thoughts, I mean, we can, but those thoughts are just gonna keep us stuck.

Laura: 49:46

Yeah, we have to make a change in order to start rewiring, and we can do that in a variety of different ways. So I think that's a really good place to leave it today. Thank you so much, Michaela, for all of your insights as always. And conversation. Yes, and thank you everyone for listening to Why Am I Like This? If you like our show, please leave us a rating and review on your favorite podcast platform. Follow the show and share it with friends. This episode was written and produced by me, Laura Wood, and Michaela Beaver. Our theme song is Making Ends Meet by Thick as Thieves, and the special thanks to Core Self, Benavieri Counseling, and Active Healing the Psychatric Services for sponsoring our show.